Curse

Dumachum · Jun 30, 2005, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

For a game that promises fast pvp action, 2h for a sup rune seems a bit ... excessive. And 2500 faction / 2h seems impossible anyway, unless you have an uber guild. If you have an uber guild, grind never was the problem in the first place.

Its extremely funny how people pretend to whine about whining. Its acting of course, since noone could be so stupid to really mean it... THAT would be the new definition of pathetic

F'ing Christ. Complaining it takes 2 hours to get faction to unlock a superior rune. Most the people who have been playing since day 1 have unlocked less then half a dozen sup runes and you complain that 2 hours is now too long?

Weezer_Blue · Jun 30, 2005, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

My Guild is quite new to the game and is ranked between 300 and 350. We can easily get 2500 faction in 2-3 hours, as I stated before. We're not Uber, we're just an organized group of people. Many whiners like you fail to understand that you have to be organized to actually play GvG decently.

I'll wager Epinephrine could make a team build that would irradicate your guild. See, us "whiners" are whining because we are held back from the part of the game we love: PvP. We know a thing or two about it, not that I consider myself "1337" (god I hate leet speak). Part of the problem is that thanks to A.Net screwing us, several of the best members of my guild didn't even buy the game after the realization of it's grindingness on the 27th and a few others couldn't buy it in their country until may something, and then learned it sucked later. The rest of them were long burnt out from grinding. So GvG may be the fastest solution, but why? Winning in the Tombs takes a lot better of a team. Different tactics, yes, but it's harder.

In any case, you insult those who don't agree with you with every single post by calling us whiners, and to tell you the truth, I'm sick of being called a whiner for voicing my complaints about a game. If you want to continue calling us that, fine. But you only destroy your own arguement. I'm not going to stoop so low as to insulting you. If I'm a whiner, then it must be better than whatever the hell you call yourself.

franning · Jun 30, 2005, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

My thoughts? If I wrote my thoughts, I'd be immediatly banned.

But you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You obviously have no clue how long the system actually takes. Sure, 1,000 doesn't seem much... lets see... divide 3,000 by 40. That's how many tombs matches you would have to win on a winning streak to get a single elite or superior rune. Then consider the fact that 99% of all PUG's will never make it past their second match. How often do you see a non-guild group holding the Hall of Heroes? My point exactly. If anything, the system needs speeding up. By a lot.

I think Arena recognize that there is some people who does not want to do any PvE so they gave them a way to earn something from doing pure PvP. I don't see any problem with these. You have to earn things.

Vynn · Jun 30, 2005, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Weezer_Blue and StandardAI (sp.??) - two people who complain and do nothing else but complain. Why don't they just find another game??

Mormegil · Jun 30, 2005, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

I'll wager Epinephrine could make a team build that would irradicate your guild.

Probably you meant "eradicate" (irradicate literally means "to root deeply"), but the anger made your vision blurry, and didn't improve your english grammar. What's the point of your tough talking? If this Epinephrine and his mates are more experienced and organized than us, they'll win; otherwise, they'll lose. This is an obvious fact...if your sentence was meant to provoke a reaction from me, not only you failed badly, but you showed you have some serious issue about coming up with rational points. It's a game, and I will always find people more skilled than me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

If I'm a whiner, then it must be better than whatever the hell you call yourself.

It seems to me you have an interior struggle against frustration. If so, apparently you're not winning.

Bazooka · Jun 30, 2005, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by free4all

Now getting weapon upgrades takes NO PvE at all. This game is basically becoming pure PvP. Your thoughts?

Your assertion is wrong , if you take the time to test or think about it more clearly you will see that unlocking via PvE is still the least time consuming.

Even if your assumption were correct,so what? Does it really cave in your self image that someone who likes to play differently than you can get an item "faster"?

Unik · Jun 30, 2005, 02:07 PM // 14:07

This thread seems to be more about people whining about others whining, then an actual debate on the update. The two sides are so entrenched in their war of the words and protecting their respective sides that any changes made to the game whether it affects or not their own playing experience will inevitably lead to this.

Gw cycle of life:

-Update release
-Concerned side of the update post comments (or complaints)
-Non concerned side automatically starts complaining about the other side complaining.
- Concerned side answers back.
- Flaming and whining about who got what and who wants what starts.
- We finish this with 3 pages of…If you don’t like it leave.

Not only is our little cycle not helping Anet as they are looking at the feedback and finding most post in those threads are made out of spite and have no pertinence to the subject, but only to whine about whiners or to exchange insults.

Maybe Anet needs to build the great wall of GW between the pve and pvp facets of the game, oh wait better make that wall soundproof also.

Unik

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

Probably you meant "eradicate" (irradicate literally means "to root deeply"), but the anger made your vision blurry, and didn't improve your english grammar. What's the point of your tough talking? If this Epinephrine and his mates are more experienced and organized than us, they'll win; otherwise, they'll lose. This is an obvious fact...if your sentence was meant to provoke a reaction from me, not only you failed badly, but you showed you have some serious issue about coming up with rational points. It's a game, and I will always find people more skilled than me.

It seems to me you have an interior struggle against frustration. If so, apparently you're not winning.

I think he mistook your post as calling mine (directly above it) a whiner. I suspect you were targetting someone that was complaining. I won't argue about my competance, I have been playing mostly PvE (with brief HoH bouts to gain familiarity) though I am heavily into theorycrafting/metagame analysis. My guildmates are pretty knowledgable and include a moderator of these fora, so I imagine that when we decide to truly delve into GvG we'll do alright.

I think this (faction) is a fine solution - not as good as an unlock all skills for your profession on beating the game, but a reasonable way to do it. Those who want to unlock fast can blur through the minor and major runes in little time, and instead of hunting FOREVER to get the superiors they are missing (one of my guild mates is STILL missing Superior Air and Vigor, has the others) you can get the runes you want unlocked. You don't need to unlock them all, just the ones needed for your build. If the unlocking were random with faction points I'd agree that it's a bit excessively long, but as it is you can get your superior rune pretty fast if you've played through PvE and are still missing it. Will it eliminate the PvE? No - PvE will still be way more efficient for unlocking the mahority of skills and the minor/major runes, as well as many upgrades on the away, but if you have (for example) a +17% Enchanting bow grip unlocked form PvE, you can easily upgrade it to a maxed grip.

I like the balance of the two; while it is technically possible to unlock everything through PvP now (yay!) it is very time consuming (boo!). Likewise, you can unlock everything through PvE (Yay?) but again, because it can be hard to get the last few runes or the specific one you want (boo!) it takes forever* (BOOOOOO!). With the combination of the two methods though, you can unlock a large number of random things, then upgrade the ones you need relatively quickly. So I am not whining, and I would guess you were writing about another poster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazooka

Your assertion is wrong , if you take the time to test or think about it more clearly you will see that unlocking via PvE is still the least time consuming.

No, I suspect the fastest is now a PvE blitz to gain most of the easily aquired stuff, as well as unlocking the majority of your runes, trading unIDed runes with others to acquire runes from less fleshed out classes; follow this with PvP to target specific runes/items to flesh your character out.

Really, if you have 3 ranger superior unlocked and find an unIDed ranger superior, you are better off trading it for a Warrior rune for example, if you only have 2 ulocked warrior runes; rather than a 75% chance of wasting a superior rune you now have only a 40% chance of wasting it, and it'll be more efficient to unlock the last few runes through PvP. After all, once you have the faction it isn't a gamble - you get exaclty what you want.

* For the mathematically inclined, there are 27 superior runes out there. If you have a build which needs 2 specific runes in mind, starting with neither oof the runes you wish, you would need to unlock an average of 39.5 superior runes to get the two you desire. If you play through PvE you'll have the majority of the Minor and Major runes unlocked, if not all of them. The number of random rune unlocks to get all superior runes on average is 105.0693 unlocks (27 times the 27th harmonic number for those interested), but given how quickly you can unlock half of them for example (it only takes 19 or so unlocks on average to have half the superiors) you can then acquire the missing ones with faction points. With 32 randomly unlocked superior runes you have on average 8 runes left over, but those 8 will take you an average of 73 more random rune unlocks - granted, with the Unided being from classes you can cut this down a bit most likely, as it allows some degree of targetting, but when you have all but one rune from each profession the faction is starting to look much more efficient.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 30, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

It seems to me you have an interior struggle against frustration. If so, apparently you're not winning.

No. It's an exterior struggle against idiots. (PS: I haven't slept all day)

Quote:

Originally Posted by franning

I think Arena recognize that there is some people who does not want to do any PvE so they gave them a way to earn something from doing pure PvP. I don't see any problem with these. You have to earn things.

I've never played a good PvP game where I had to earn things. That's the worst excuse I have yet heard for the PvP dilema, as anyone who uses it doesn't understand what PvP is all about. In a perfect game, PvP is where at least 2 players with all resources available to them face off in a contest to see who can use their own personal "skill" and these resources the best. If you wanted to play chess, would someone say "ha! you want a queen? you need to play 300 chess matches before you get to use the queen... newb!" ... the second you object to the idiotic new rules someone says "quit bitching, you bitchy bitching bitch". The only thing that must be earned in a good PvP game is rank, kills, wins, and sorts of other statistics. If you want to give a reward, it must have nothing to do with the outcome of a battle. If you win a match in a game, you shouldn't instantly be given a bazooka to kill the other guys next time around. Because no matter how you do it, eventually, after playing long enough everyone will have one. So then a new player comes along with a glock or something and gets owned? Right...

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

I've never played a good PvP game where I had to earn things. That's the worst excuse I have yet heard for the PvP dilema, as anyone who uses it doesn't understand what PvP is all about...

Agreed - the idea behind PvP should be that all players have equal access to all skills, runes, items and should permit free attribute points after losing matches to allow people to change setups before going back in.

Anything else isn't a real test of abilities, excepting between those who have bothered to unlock.

I support and always will support UAS/unlock EVERYTHING for PvP. That is the nature of competitive play. I happen to enjoy the game enough that I am happily unlocking things, but that doesn't mean I can't see the faults. It is ludicrous to claim something as a game of skill if the starting conditions for a match are not equal. Rewards for play should be purely cosmetic.

That said, the new system is a vast improvement on random unlocking, and being able to target a missing rune will be very advantageous, and will get me into the PvP areas more rather than continuing to unlock through PvE alone. I don't have the amount of time some have to put into this game, I am pretty hardcore for a guy with a family and full time job, logging over 20, sometimes 30 hours in a week, but it is still slow to unlock things. This'll make that easier.

I also get that there are those who will feel cheated by having "earned " their gear while other sgot theirs free. I don't see their point at all, it's as ludicrous to me as expecting to start up a touchdown in a football game because you won last year's championship, but that style of online play is popular. To satisfy both camps simply requires a divide - RP arenas, RP GvG, RP HoH completely separate from the competitive PvP arenas, PvP GvG and PvP HoH. Give them a safe place where they can lord their time commitment to the game over others, give those of us with more skill than time and the desire to compete fairly a separate place. You can't satisfy both, we have opposin axioms.

My axiom is: Anything less than both players (teams) having access to the same skills, weapons and items is not a fair competition, and thus is not true PvP and doesn't deserve the slogan "Skill, not hours played"
This axiom leads to fair play, and competitions in which victory is meaningful.

Their axiom is "You must earn the right to gear. Giving gear you haven't earned is taking away from those of us who have put the time in"
This axiom leads to unbalanced competition, and rewards those who put time in over those with skill.

Mormegil · Jun 30, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Agreed - the idea behind PvP should be that all players have equal access to all skills, runes, items and should permit free attribute points after losing matches to allow people to change setups before going back in.

But they have. They just have to play the game as it was intended to be: GvG.

If your guild is scattered or has declined, weezer blue, then I don't see the point of your idiotic replies. Spend less time whining and writing negative posts here, and reform a decent guild.
Oh, now you'll probably answer me that "due to the actual shittiness of GW no one will want to play" (hilarious). If thats the case, I'd be more than happy to introduce you to my big buddy list...know what? People who really play the game aren't here complaining all the time.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 30, 2005, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I would, but despite what you percieve here, I'm actually a nice guy, and I couldn't ditch the few friends I still have left in Guild Wars just because they aren't always on. Maybe you're the sort of person who is out only for his own selfish good, and can't understand this, so I won't waste my time trying to convince you.

Keure · Jun 30, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I did some searching about previous PvP/PvE grind debates and found this thread that all of you may or may not have seen:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&page=1&pp=25

I thought this thread was informative with not too many personal attacks. I do this with the hope of clearing up misconceptions and/or creation of solutions that do not involve separation of the two camps.

Deathlord · Jun 30, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by free4all

First of all, this idea seems cool, but it also has a negative side. Think about it. Now getting weapon upgrades takes NO PvE at all. This game is basically becoming pure PvP. All the PvE players that worked hard and long to get that awesome Fellblade 15 damage%>50%health, +30 health, (whatever hilt), it takes a PvP player about 5 minutes to create a character with the exact same sword (minus the model) if they have unlocked it through fighting. GvG seems to make gaining these points pretty fast, so this definately favors the PvP players and not the PvE. Guild Wars is destroying it's formerly well-maintained PvE environment.

Your thoughts?

GvG isn't easy to get together unless you have a rank 5 guild with 30 members always ready to go. Your hard earned _________ weapon isn't useless since the model itself matters that much. You see people paying 15k for a gladius with +15dmg while hp over 50%, and you see people paying 400k+ for a fellblade with that. People that did manage to work "Hard and long" still own a weapon thats super valuable, and the patch hasn't changed its value.

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

But they have. They just have to play the game as it was intended to be: GvG.

If your guild is scattered or has declined, weezer blue, then I don't see the point of your idiotic replies. Spend less time whining and writing negative posts here, and reform a decent guild.
Oh, now you'll probably answer me that "due to the actual shittiness of GW no one will want to play" (hilarious). If thats the case, I'd be more than happy to introduce you to my big buddy list...know what? People who really play the game aren't here complaining all the time.

No Mormegil, you are wrong. Only those with absurd amount of time have top end stuff.

It isn't a level playing field, period. Chess is level. Day of Defeat is level. Soccer is level. This isn't. It has improved the time required to hit the gear that will allow a level playing field, but many still won't have it, and it is a substantial barrier to a new player trying the game. This dimishes its attractiveness to those who enjoy PvP most, the PvPer. I have posted before that I play other PvP games pretty coompetitively, and this is tthe most discouraging situation because you start at a disadvantage against anyone with more time invested, and at an advantage against those with less.

I don't want level conditions because I feel I can't win: I want level starting conditions to make the act of winning an actual victory. As it stands you have no idea whether your victories were due to skill or gear, and the same hold true about your losses. True competition can't occur in this environment, and no serious PvPer will come to GW and waste his time building up to compete. If I had bought this game for the PvP alone I'd have walked out ages ago - I can play fair games, why would I play this mockery.

As it stands, the only way to know your losses weren't due to lack of gear is to get all the gear you need. Then you are limited to not knowing whether your victories were real victories, but that's a bit easier to swallow - though it still isn't waht I want. I want all bloody skills, gear, runes and so on unlocked. If you want to play Gank Wars or l337 Wars, go play in an RP only arena, I want fair play and real competition.

Acan Vishnu · Jun 30, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

My only thoughts on the un-even playing field is that if you have gone through the game, even just once, the chances are that you have unlocked at least the basic mods/upgrades for your character. So you at least have a decent start.

The difference between a mid-range mod and the top-end mods are pretty negligable, giving you on average, what? An extra 5% chance to get double adrenaline, 5% extra duration on enchantments, another 10-15 hitpoints? (I could list them all, but really, that'd be a pretty boring read :P )

I'd say thats a pretty gentle incline there really, and all the while that your learning your getting closer to getting the top-end mods. Is it dead even like a regular PvP-based game like RTS' and FPS'? No... and anyone who says that is delusional, but really this is a hybrid game, and the devs are still tweaking and fixing as they go along.

Imagine if the unlock system had been here from the beginning. How far do you think you'd be now? At even just 1000 faction points a night, you could easily be done unlocking two classes completely. I would really say that the best advice right now is to give it time, test the system over the duration, not the immediate.

Mormegil · Jun 30, 2005, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

No Mormegil, you are wrong. Only those with absurd amount of time have top end stuff.

If you think that getting 2000 faction points in 2 hours (anyone could do it even with a less than decent guild) is an absurd amount of time spent, well, then we have different opinions about time.

Trying tactics, improving teamplay, creating effective builds...THAT does take an absurd amount of time, and it's ok.

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

If you think that getting 2000 faction points in 2 hours (anyone could do it even with a less than decent guild) is an absurd amount of time spent, well, then we have different opinions about time.

Trying tactics, improving teamplay, creating effective builds...THAT does take an absurd amount of time, and it's ok.

No, I think it's perfect for unlocking a specific skill/rune. I think it is ludicrous to think that it means you can unlock everything with PvP with any degree of success as a new player to GW. I think you shouldn't need to unlock anything for PvP - PvP should have all unlocked, and be separate from PvE.

To do GvG you need a sigil. You need to get that by winning HoH (unlikely for a new, casual player) or by buying one (still very pricey - it would take many hours of play to get one). So for a new PvP only player, they can't do GvG, so they are stuck with arena/HoH.

I agree that it's an improvement, like handing out condoms to fight AIDS. It isn't enough I don't think, as I want full unlock.

Your 2000 points in 2 hours is from GvG - yes, for those who can get GvG together, I think this looks like a good soultion. It will certainly make GvG more popular

For those who don't I think it is a fairly weak system, but it is a defiinite improvement.

asdar · Jun 30, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Everyone that's playing is getting faction points like mad. I think 95% of PvP players will like these changes when they get used to them. It's going to make Rune of Vigor and absorption easily attainable by any PvP player.

I wish I could take up a collection to ban the people that just spam negative threads. They're a negative influence on every thread they visit. I'm not one of those, "If you don't like it leave guys." There's things I like and things I don't like about any game.

If you don't like it by all means post, once or twice or 100 times. There are some people that have just gone too far with the complaints. They just say the same negative comments over and over on every single thread including ones that have nothing to do with PvP.

Rethan Soulfire · Jun 30, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

You people need to go pvp more. Secondly, by the time your guild or players are ultra Competitive in regards to TOP end PvP and decently ranked on the ladder, I'm sure you will not be missing "one" piece of crucial gear by the time you get there. And then guess what? All your faction points from owning it up will just steadily unlock you more new skills you didn't want, which ultimately opens the horizon's for you to try a new job new skills new runes new PvP character. Guess what THIS is good. You think right now all you want is your air spike ele, well you own it up for a couple weeks/months and you've unlocked everything to play a trapping ranger without EVER making a PvE one as a side effect. GET over it. ENJOY the game. Skill MATTERS, even at an unlocked advantage, Superior VS Major Air is not going to ruin your team. THE Only rune that MIGHT make a teamwide difference is Superior Vigor because it is a teamwide HP boost that is pretty substantial when cumulatively looked at.

ALL this said, I'm 100% sure that superior vigor will be unlocked by any serious PVP player as their first unlocks, SO GET over yourselves. And enjoy the game. Seriously. Stop the bitching.

This will level the play field. Your build only takes 1 elite, it can't use any more. It takes as much time to get your _1_ elite (that may or may not have been on a real crappy ultra rare random spawn and before the cap sig change you had to make it use the skill and time it? I mean lets get real this system is GREAT. You get to do what you like to do (PvP) and get the skills to make you better without having to set foot in the PvE game more than one time. And the story is worth enjoying once.